Black, transgender sex workers share an oral history of NYC’s Meatpacking district where they found work, home, & community whilst otherwise being exiled from society. It traces an early history of activism for trans rights, while also documenting the changes in the neighborhood through many decades of policing, gentrification, and policy changes. We break down THE STROLL by Kristen Lovell & Zackary Drucker in this episode.
Sundance 2023 Section: U.S. Documentary Competition
Distribution: Streaming on Max on June 21, 2023
From the Sundance website: This is the definitive history of New York City’s Meatpacking District, told by the transgender women of color who created its history. The now corporate, flush façade of the neighborhood was plastered over the world of transgender sex workers who lived, worked, loved, and died there. “The Stroll” was where trans women of color, shunned out of the workforce, turned to for a means of survival. Their perspective and insights constitute a rigorous archive of how heavy policing, violence both threatened and realized, and mass gentrification combined to create Manhattan’s built environment today.
Women of the Stroll past and present are brought together by co-director Kristen Lovell (for whom this is a stunning directorial debut), who worked alongside them for a decade, and Zackary Drucker (Transparent producer and The Lady and the Dale director). The directors’ proximity to the story and its tellers brings to the screen a camaraderie and care presented with crystalline clarity and undeniable force. Their ability to illuminate such challenging history is tempered by their kind directorial hands and shared joy in remembering this hallowed ground.
Music Credit: spacedust by airtone
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Rough Transcript
[00:00:13.501] Kent Bye: Hello, my name is Kent Bye. And I'm Wonder Bright. And welcome to Story All the Way Down, where we're covering the Sundance 2023 documentaries. And today's episode, we're going to be focusing on The Stroll by Kristen Lovell and Zachary Drucker. So this is from the synopsis. It says, it's the definitive history of New York City's meatpacking district told by the transgender women of color who created its history. So this is a district on the east side of Manhattan where essentially it was a refuge for a lot of transgender sex workers that at the time, if you were transgender, there was nowhere to really work. You couldn't get a job. A lot of people were being kicked out from their homes. And so you have a lot of homeless sex workers that are in this area where they're doing sex work. And so at the height, there was maybe a thousand transgender sex workers in this area. And then over time, you sort of watch its history as there's different policies that come in and there's restrictions by different phases of government. And so at the beginning of this documentary, we hear from Kristen, who's one of the co-directors, and she's sharing that she's had a direct experience of being featured in other documentaries about this area, but yet didn't have any editorial control about how her story was being told. And so, this is really a story of this place and time and the people as told by the people who are there creating its history, which you end up seeing a lot of these one-on-one interviews throughout the course of the documentary, recounting the stories and the experiences. And the film kind of goes through these different phases of in the thriving 80s, where there's probably around a thousand transgender sex workers in this area. And then slowly over time, there's elements of gentrification, but also matched with different politicians that are coming into power and having different policies. And each of this is shaping the degree to which this area is providing this refuge for these transgender sex workers. At some point, there's neighborhood associations that are fighting against them and the different interactions with the cops. And so you kind of have this history of New York that's being told on one hand, but also through the lens of these sex workers as they're working and their plights of just trying to make a living, but also kind of being exiled from the culture at large in different ways. And so you have people that are just trying to survive in a situation and context where there's not a lot of other options for them. So like it says, it's like the definitive history of this place and time. And Kristen is saying that there's not a lot of resources for this type of transgender history of what was happening in this meatpacking district. And so I was largely not really aware of this history at all. And so to go in there and to record both these interviews, but also drawing upon a whole slew of different archival photos that different photographers that were taking photos of that time, but also different video clips and also just showing the evolution of the relationship of this area and these sex workers with the government and the police force, I think is also a common theme throughout the film. So yeah, I'd love to get some of your thoughts on The Stroll.
[00:03:24.731] Wonder Bright: Yeah. So everything that you just described is obviously accurate. And in many ways, this is a very difficult, dark history. And the fact of it being told from this first person narrative is one of the things that we talked about in our very first episode where we just like did an overview of the slew of documentaries that we had access to in the last week that was so exciting, which is just stories being told that we haven't heard before. And for me personally, there's something really dynamic and exciting that's happening with transgender sex worker stories. Because transgender sex workers, and then obviously add on to that the layer of being black or Latinx, in addition to that, experiencing an intersection with humanity that nobody else is. And I have friends who have done sex work and my conversations with them has been illuminating for me about the way that the world operates and how people are in the world. In ways that reflect back a reality that I would not want to do without. So to actually have this opportunity to sit with these women and hear their stories about their time in the era that they were working on the streets like this. I mean, it's just really worth anybody's time, in my opinion. It's an experience that you won't forget. And the wonderful surprises that show up in terms of their connection to one another and the things that show up in terms of, you know, they may not have been safe with their clients. They may not have been safe with the Johns. They may not have been safe with the police. They may not have been safe in the world at large. They may not have been safe when they put their heads down to go to sleep. But there is a way in which they were safe with one another. that provided a kind of freedom that the world didn't even have a language for at the time. And maybe we're only just beginning to have a language for and to watch them explore what that was like through remembering together their time on the stroll. It's not an experience I'm going to forget.
[00:05:48.067] Kent Bye: There's an element, I think, of the way that location and place is connecting to memory. And there's some places that are in this film where they're able to go back and recount these different stories. But oftentimes, the geography has changed so much. The High Line goes through there now, all these different buildings. And things being torn down and built back up. And so, in some ways, through these archival photos and these stories, we're getting a slice of this history that has now been erased, or the progress of gentrification and economic development and everything else, but also the policies of the government that has created a prohibitive environment for this area to continue. So, just to see them walk around and recount different stories at different moments throughout the history So I think the other interesting part of this documentary is it starts to pull in some of the archival footage of fighting for transgender rights. There's Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P. Johnson, who were both involved with Stonewall, but also different levels of activism and really speaking up for trans rights. At the time, I got the real sense that there was a lot of the gay liberation movements, but yet the transgender specific aspects were not necessarily at the forefront of those same discussions. And I think over time, you start to see these different waves of activism that is growing over time, but yet there was some real strong voices that were trying to fight for equal rights and pushing for change from that perspective of being transgender. that was also a key part of this documentary of starting to weave in some of those other aspects of the history of activism that was also happening within this geographic context of people that were involved within these communities and fighting for equal rights and human rights. And, you know, for me, it's just really striking to hear how many of the stories that were being told. I mean, one of the transgender women was saying that most of the sex workers don't live beyond the age of 35 or 40. So a lot of the people that were involved with this have now since passed, but to be able to go back and to capture the people that were there and to capture some of their stories, and just the fact that there were not a lot of other options for where people could go and people living on the streets and this was their homes and Just to think that there wasn't housing available or opportunity for jobs and that they really wanted to live into their full identity. This is the type of life that they chose to be fully expressed, but also these other consequences of putting their lives in danger and in peril and also not being able to have a home that they could really settle into.
[00:08:31.323] Wonder Bright: Yeah, I mean, there is a movement afoot to change the way that people refer to unhoused people from being homeless to unhoused or houseless. And watching this film, if it isn't already clear to you, will make it really vitally clear. Because despite the fact that their homes were made from tents and tarpaulins and cardboard, It was also made from the bonds and unity that these women shared together and their need to fight for what they had and for one another the way that they did. And that is something that you see, even though they're no longer living on the streets. Because you see it in the way that they're connected to one another through the way that they're telling this story, that they're telling the story of the stroll, they're telling the story of their time together as sex workers on those streets in the meatpacking district. But they're also telling the story of them together as a unit, as the creation of a family unit once they had been abandoned by their families of origin. And that's a home that they're always going to carry with them. And in the creation of this film, they're sharing it with us at large.
[00:09:47.477] Kent Bye: Yeah, there were also some interesting dynamics of the response from the people that live there in the meatpacking district. In the course of this documentary, there is some neighborhood association advocates who were saying that the common belief is that the sex work is a victimless crime, but the neighborhood association was saying, actually, we are the victims here because there was sex that was happening on the side of the street. And so there was this interesting dimension of like these people were trying to make their living, but yet it was happening in these public spaces in a way that as the gentrification was happening, more people were moving in. became more of an issue than it was in the beginning in the 80s. But yeah, I'd love to hear some of your thoughts on that in particular, because there was a bit of what George Carlin refers to as not in my backyard. I'm happy that there was the opportunity for people to have these sex work experiences, but I'm not sure if I would personally want to have it happening right outside of my own house. And so there was this interesting dimension of the people that were living there that were pushing back
[00:10:50.100] Wonder Bright: I mean, I didn't get the impression that the neighbors thought that they were happy that people were having sex work anywhere. I mean, I personally wouldn't want to, you know, be woken up in the middle of the night by people having sex outside my front door or in the bushes around the side of my house. Like, I wouldn't want those things. And the problem is not with the sex or, in my opinion, even people getting paid for sex. The problem is having a safe place to conduct that business or having a private place to conduct that business or that experience and not having it be something that has to be done in a furtive fashion wherever you can make it happen. Right? Like, that to me is what the issue is here. And these women did not have a lot of options about where they could take their tricks. Like, what were their choices? Right? So there's a lack of humanity in people talking about how this is a quote, victimless crime. Because, well, okay, I don't personally think it should be a crime. And, you know, the issue to me is not about whether it's victimless or not. It's really about whether it's a crime or not, because if it isn't a crime, then there is going to be more safety and standards around it. I mean, there's so many directions you could go with that line of questioning. But fundamentally, these neighbors were upset about something that ultimately resulted in further penalization and criminality and difficulty for these women who were already in peril.
[00:12:42.208] Kent Bye: Yeah. Yeah. And I think throughout the last half of the documentary, you start to see these shifts and the government policies and the enforcement and these women having to go serve time in jail and at Rikers. And, you know, eventually with all the different changes, you know, there's no longer the same type of stroll. Even the meatpackers are no longer there. So there's a lot of shifts that I think the other part of this film is documenting those shifts and how the city of New York itself had changed with all these different regulations and laws and enforcement and economic development that had happened. And so, yeah, I feel like at the end of this documentary, I read that they spent around a decade making this film of just trying to capture the history. And I think the end result is that they're really able to honor both what was happening there as this movement and a part of the trans history and specifically trans women of color, sex work history. And yeah, I really quite enjoyed the piece. And yeah, so I guess what are you bearing witness to in this documentary of The Stroll?
[00:13:47.925] Wonder Bright: Well, what I want to bear witness to is what comes up for me when I frame this film through the lens of astrology, through the way that we think about sexuality and gender, which typically comes down to thinking about the planets Mars and Venus. traditionally, and even up until the last century, astrologers have not been unlike John Gray saying that men are from Mars and women are from Venus. And there's been this real bifurcation of who gets to be feminine and who gets to be masculine. And what does that mean? And, you know, if a man is feminine or a woman is masculine, then they're not doing things correctly. And what I love about the transgender community and also the sex worker communities, and definitely when you combine those together, is these questions about like real questions. about the meaning of those planets, because they're asking real questions about masculinity, femininity, male, female, and what that actually means in the body of a human being. So for me, there's something really vital about stories that really throws into question the heteronormative standard roles of gender and sexuality, and who are doing it not just on their own bodies, but because of the clientele that they're attracting, right? Like if a man goes to a transgender woman for sex, What does that say about his masculinity? What does that say about his sex? What does that say about his, quote, Mars? Right. So to me, this is not just about transgender and it's not just about men or women. It's like man or woman or non-binary. It's really asking some core questions about how we as human beings have described ourselves through the ages and whether or not the way we've described ourselves is working. Right? Because if our astrology and if our human context altogether can't hold space for these people who exist, right? We don't need to question their humanity. They're here. Then what else is possible? Right? I just loved these women. I could have spent so much more time with them. Make a series, ladies.
[00:16:20.212] Kent Bye: Hmm. Yeah, there's another documentary that we watch called Kokomo City that I think also gets into more of the first person embodied experiences of some of those experiences of sex work that I think this is a cultural history and documenting the place and time and these experiences. And I think the Kokomo City kind of takes a different take of these transgender sex workers.
[00:16:42.655] Wonder Bright: I wouldn't. I mean, yeah, I was sort of saving some of the things that I wanted to say about that until we talk about it. I wouldn't say it takes a different take. I would just say it's, you know, an iterative take. Kokomo City has a younger generation of black transgender sex workers. And so their take is different. And the director's take is different for reasons that we'll get into. Check our show notes. Look for links. Go listen to that one if you're curious. But for now, I just want to start with this exploration and this iteration, this generation of trans women having this conversation and just how vibrant it was and how restorative it was to hear their story in the context of the time that they were living it and the time in which they're now able to look back and reflect and share it with us.
[00:17:31.989] Kent Bye: I love that intention to be able to capture histories that haven't been told yet and through all the techniques of documentary to integrate those oral history interviews with the footage, with the deeper contextualization of this place and time and how it has informed this larger movement and been a key part of the evolution of the history and these lives of women and non-binary folks that were involved with this. Yeah. And what I want to bear witness to is the power of taking control of your own story and how those stories are being told, because this project was born out of other people trying to tell this story, but not really doing it justice. And I feel like the filmmakers of Kristen Lovell and Zachary Drucker were really able to do justice for telling the full definitive history of the New York City's Meatpacking District and all the transgender sex workers that were working there. And just reflecting on how society wasn't really accepting them and their identity and really they were exiles and not really having a lot of other options. And, you know, I think this documentary is helping to give some deeper contextualization for the risks that these women had to put their lives into and just living on the edge and the fringe and really giving you a sense of that through those archival photos and just the medium of the documentary to be able to capture these oral histories and to be able to use all the modes and methods of documentary to kind of fuse this together and to create a history that otherwise has not been told, you know, creating this definitive history of this place in time. So yeah, that was called The Stroll. It was by Kristen Lovell and Zachary Drucker and it's a part of the US documentary competition. It won a special jury award for clarity of vision and actually distributed by HBO. So look for it on HBO channels here at some point here soon. So thanks again for joining us on Story All The Way Down. If you'd like more information, you can go to storyallthewaydown.com to find out more information about this podcast, this series, what we're up to and different ways that you can support the podcast. So thanks for joining us.
